AFTER THE FLOOD Discussion on the Ice Age
JXF TO DJ
Dan here's a question I'd like to put to you: "How do we tie in
the
chronology for Neanderthal " so it correlates with Bill Cooper's after the
Flood" Would it be 2200 to 1484 BC with Neanderthal? John
DJ TO JXF
Good question. That research has not yet been done and I was hoping you
would do it or at least lay the foundation. So far we have Jack Cuozzo's
hypothesis that the Neanderthals were early post flood members that lived
very long life spans. However, I am not yet totally convinced that he is
right. They also could be an early cultural group with some distinct
morphology. It would appear that these people first lived in Canaan and
then migrated to Europe or could be the other way around. Would that make
them Hamitic? If they left Canaan and migrated to Europe they may have lost
much of their technology on the way. They appear to be quite decultured.
Some people connect them with giantism but I am not sure that they were all
that giant. There are many legends of giants that were driven out or killed
off in many parts of the world. However, they may or may not have any
connection to the early giants. There is just plain too much we do not
know. And yes the Neanderthal
probably fit in between 2200 and 1500 BC but where in there and linked with
what population I do not think we have much yet to go by. Why do you
mention the date 1484? Are you thinking that the people that the earth
Irish and British ran out (the Formosians) were the Neanderthals?
JXF TO DJ
Dan yes I looked for a link for Dr Osgood and I think I've found it. it is
www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v3/l1/index.asp
Try that and see what you come
up with. You ask me why I mention the date 1484 BC? The answer is "so that
it ties in with Bill's time line for Britain and Ireland. It would most
certainly allow just over 700 years for the ice age given my date of 2242 BC
at the time of Babel; this seems a pretty good correlation and allowing a
passage of time from Babel in order to reach Britain say of about 42 years.
Not a bad guess is it? In answer to your other question am I doing the
research ? Yes I am but have still not found a legible table for Egypt that
is easy to read. Have you any ideas because it is very small print. John
DJ TO JXF
If you search for Donovan Courville, David Rohl, and Downs you will probably
come up with a number of charts that will suit the bill. Why are we
discussing 2242 BC? Maybe someone thinks this is the date of Babel but how
can you substantiate that? Why guess at dates? 42 years...
They could
have already been there before Babel mining tin possibly or surveying. Who
knows? Or maybe it took longer than 42 years, perhaps several hundred.
Then you have to sort out the difference between having been visited and
surveyed, and actual habitation (colonization). They would be different
dates as well, particularly since the isles are in a major shipping lane.
POST FLOOD CLIMATE CHANGES (DJ)
This is interesting as I did not know there were those who proposed that
there was another cold period that lasted until AD 700. I appears from
Bill
Cooper's work that 1500 BC was already into a warming trend. So did we
have
a cool period in between that lasted until AD 700? What can you find out
about this.
At least twice since the close of the Stone Age, conditions have favored
such events. The first occurred during the warm period of the middle
Bronze
Age which was previously noted. Then the world's climates cooled again,
and
the northern route to America became too ice-bound and too dangerous to
attract adventurers in those directions any longer. It remained thus until
about AD 700, when once more the earth's climate ameliorated [see Climate] .
Once again the northern icecap melted and the polar seas could support
navigation that made use of the polar high. Once more mariners came to
northeastern America, this time under a name by which they are known in
history--The Vikings. Yet, as the inscriptions show, these Vikings were
not
just Norsemen, they included as before men from the Baltic lands,
Lithuanians and Latvians, as well as Celts from Ireland and probably also
Wales. After AD 1200 the earth grew colder again, the thousand vineyards
of
William the Conqueror's England died out, and Normans turned their attention
to the south of Europe to bring in their Malmsey wines, no longer fermented
in England, where no vineyards now survived. The old routs to America were
deserted, and that western land lay ignored by Europe until the voyage of
Columbus once more awakened the cupidity of monarchs who, by this time, now
controlled large populations of Europe. This time the full force of
European exploitation fell upon the Amerindians, and the age of American
isolation had ended.
WAS THERE A GLOBAL FLOOD?
DH (Dave Hume) to JXF
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have inserted some information for you from “Leopold’s Exposition of Genesis” Sourced from the Onlinebible.net
Personally I am not totally convinced of the assumption that a Global Flood occurred in the Lifespan of Noah. I prefer the view that it was localized in the Middle East. This would have been the World of the Patriarchs of the Human Race. The division of the Land amongst them occurred in the Days of Peleg. (The lands near the Mediterranean Basin) Subsequent migrations to the other continents may be on foot through Russia to the America’s. The human colonization of Islands occurring by using boats, or being driven by storms and shipwrecked in far away places. There could be a link between the Aztecs and the Egyptians, who were both pyramid builders and built boats.
Deuteronomy 32:8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
At Gibraltar the distance between the African Continent and Europe is small, to my mind; the Mediterranean Sea was once dry land, and when the tectonic plates moved it was flooded and everything that lived there perished. Hence the Ark being grounded on a mountain called Ararat either in Turkey or Iran (this is debatable) because Abraham migrated from Ur near the Euphrates and the Tigris.
My problem with a Global view is the various animals and insects common only to certain area’s of the planet. Their survival and subsequent dispersion to their present habitats would be practically impossible. (Duckbilled Platypus, Wallabies, Kangaroo, Sloth’s, Lemur’s , Koala etc)
Neanderthal DNA must first be matched to the descendants of Ham to support a view of Canaan being their father.
The Purpose of Genesis is the Genealogical track of the Human Forefathers leading to the Messiah, for He alone is the prime purpose of the Scripture.
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it(Christ) shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Also the scripture hints that there was a form of Advanced Civilization in Cain’s lifespan.( Fruit of the Tree(Kingdom) of Knowledge of Good and Evil)
Genesis 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech. ¶ And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah. And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. And his brother’s name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah. ¶ And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt. If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
Notice the technological advances, a City(large populace), Animal Husbandry, Mining, Forging of metals, musical instruments for entertainment.
Some things in the Genesis Account are used as Metaphors elsewhere in the scripture. Namely Beast’s=Human Empires Trees = Kingdoms Fruit= Knowledge and the result’s of using it.
Serpent= Human Godhood, e.g.: Pharaoh, his headgear adorned by serpents.
Ezekiel 31:18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.
Mathew 13:24 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
So John perhaps when you have reconciled all your loose ends, you may change my current view. Below are the references from Leopold.
Happy Hunting
Dave.
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
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JXF and DW
Darrell says:
Hi John, I will be on again after I eat lunch - about a half hour or so
John says:
Ok Darrell Look forward to it : John
Darrell says:
see you then
Darrell says:
bye
John says:
Darrell just popping over to my house for five minutes to load washing machine
see you in about five minutes John
The following message could not be delivered to all recipients:
Darrell just popping over to my house for five minutes to load ...
Darrell says:
Hi John, I've got about a half an hour to chat if you are able.
Darrell says:
Then I will need to start writing again
Darrell says:
I have been typing up my responses to reviews of my papers by David Austin, a
Anstey chronologist.
Darrell says:
Got a rough draft done and need to start on the other review.
John says:
Darrell if Atland (Norhwest Europe) went down in 2191 BC which I have reason to
suspect that it might have done how do we account for land bridges in event of
the ice age
Darrell says:
What I have assumed is that the land bridges were destroyed when the Ice melted
about 1500 BC.
Darrell says:
If the land bridges were formed by the Flood as they appear to have been.
Darrell says:
Then what would your comet have done?
Darrell says:
Maybe it hit the baltic sea and north sea area? But that would have depressed
the baltic sea.
John says:
The other thing is I have descovered that Paviland Cave is in South Wales. Yes
that's a good point about the commet; but would there still have been land
bridges
Darrell says:
Would we not see impact marks?
John says:
Getting back to Paviland Cave (The "Goat's Hole) as it's called red ochre
has been found associated with the Red Lady of Paviland. (Could this be
Neanderthal and not Cromagnon?
Darrell says:
Paviland Cave is in South Wales. If in 2191 BC, then they would have had to walk
in - which is possible because Ice did not reach that far down - depending on
when these are dated.
Darrell says:
Red could mean all sorts of things, but one could easily be Neanderthal.
Darrell says:
what is red ochre?
John says:
They date it from 36000 to 8000 BC by their chronology. Are we looking at the
survey teams of 2247 BC when Madai son of Japeth came to view the land he was
allotted. Red Ochre is Ireon oxide paint. John
John says:
They used it in burial cerimonies.
Darrell says:
Well, 36000 to 8000 would be dated by Ice Age methods rather than RC dating?
Darrell says:
If in burial, then I expect that her red appearance was from paint and has no
implication related to neanderthal
Darrell says:
If Ice Age dating, 8000 BC is shortly after the Ice Age ended.
Darrell says:
And 36000 is near the start if I recall correctly.
John says:
No i Guess not; but then how would we define 36000 to 8000 BC in Ussherian terms
given that it's ice age dating?
Darrell says:
That might suggest first contact before the Ice formed - before 2193 by your
comet theory and before 2254 by Oard's theory.
John says:
I would use the Babel time line of 2191 BC not 2193 although there's only 2 yrs
diffrence. But Darrell as you have sugested 2191 is still possible give n the
Oralinda book was written by an ancient chronicler.
Darrell says:
Ok 2191 BC - I aggree
Darrell says:
? Oralinda book?
John says:
Thus there could have been two strikes. One in 2191 (without the destruction of
landbridges and the final one at the exodus in1491 BC and this would constitute
Oard's 700 yrs.
Darrell says:
Maybe
Darrell says:
Maybe, at the time of the meltdown we also had fire - which might have melted
things fast - rather than another ice strike.
John says:
So then that if Britain was covered in Ice by 2247 it could not have been enough
Water/Ice to sink Atland. Or could it?
Darrell says:
Yes it could have.
Darrell says:
I work out a theory of sea level and land mass depression cause as Ice packed
up.
Darrell says:
After enough Ice built up, it would have started to depress the Baltic and north
sea areas
John says:
This means it could have gone down at Peleg's birth; though thinklng about it I
would very much doubt it
Darrell says:
By the time of the Ice age max., even though the water level was 200 foot lower,
the land would have depressed by 300 ot 400
Darrell says:
I have not accept a comet theory yet, but if it hit, it seems more reasonable to
be during the fall of Babel in 2191.
John says:
I would suggest that there would have been enough Ice by 2191 BC to what we
could really call an ice age maximum or ice age proper and yes i agree that 2191
is more reasonable idea
Darrell says:
I identify the max in Oard's theory as about 1800 Bc
Darrell says:
I will need to go in about 5 minutes - important news from my daughter has
arrived that need my attention.
John says:
Would then the Cromagnon be after Babel with Samothes group and that Nimrod
reintroduced neolithic civlilization 2100 to 2090 BC so that it was adopted by
the samotheans untill Albion's arrival in 2088?
John says:
Yes that's ok Darrell John
Darrell says:
If it was a Cromagnon, then it would have to be Samothean unless, they were part
of a survey team. Madai was not a neanderthal and yet he did see the area - if
my interpretation is correct
Darrell says:
I leave after you next message then
John says:
I need further to make some more dates on my industries chart for the "Predynastic
period of 2347 BC Neolithic/Bronze/Iron and Steel industries if as you say
Darrell the survey teams made stone tools to aid them in mining for metals and
how long this socalled predynastic period lasted. John
John says:
This would add to the interest of the reader
Darrell says:
The survey probably lasted from about 2095 BC to 2054 BC. Some visits like Madai
where probably from 2254 to 2247 BC.
Darrell says:
Pre-dynasty in Egypt means to me - before Menes - Mizraim in 2189 BC.
Darrell says:
Bye now - see you next week . Dear Bill Dr Cuozzo and Mike. I have made a very
interesting descovery. As you most probably are all aware the terms Palaeolithic
mesolithic and Neolithic are all artificial socalled periods but are in actual
fact nothing more than industries or cultures, Thus both Darrell and myself have
rejected the word "Mesolithic" as this is an evolutionary piece of
nonsense but Darrell likes the terms Palaeolithic and Neolithic as convenient
labels to define between huntergatherers and farming /aggricultualists
(Neolithic Industry) Now the interesting thing is this:- Darrell has informed me
that the socalled Predynastic period of which Donovan Courville has written
allot about; started immediately after the flood (Not forgetting that Noah and
sons probaly used or made some stone tools to aid them in mining for metals ie
Bronze Iron steel &c and being that Noah built a Vinyard and became drunken
from the wine) in 2347 BC and would therefore be refured to as
"Neolithic" (Also Bronze Iron Steel ). Of Particular interest in this
connection is that especially after the despersion at Babel in 2191 BC people
groups degenerated into huntergatherers while others retained metal
technologies. In other words the Neolithic degenerated into the Palaeolithic
industries untill as Darrell informs me was reintroduced by Nimrod worldwide
(including Britain between 2100 and 2090 BC. This is something I did'nt know
before but it is a most interesting eye-opener. This email has been done live by
Darrell and myself. I think you'll all find this most interesting and indeed
revealing reading. Problem is how do we get it into the School Class Rooms. That
will be one of my next tasks. Cheers everyone John
JHF to BC
Noah's Vineyard Link
Dear Bill (And Happy New Year to you) and also Dr Cuozzo and Darrell
(Happy New Year) I have a very interesting link here that confirms that
Noah planted a vineyard immediately after the flood (2347 BC). The link
is http://www.barossa-region.org/wine/First-Wine-Archaeologist-Traces-Drink-to-Stone...
John.
JXF to JC
Metal at Swanscombe?
Hi Dr Cuozzo; It would indeed be interesting to know if you found some metal artifacts in Swanscombe. Darrell has informed me that Nimrod had a World Empire so probably had an Egyptian "Flavour " to it. I am also informed that Nimrod reintroduced Neolithic Civilization around 2100/2090 BC. John
Hi John,
No never found any metal.
Ice Age Theory
DW and JXF
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Darrell Whitewrote:
> Hi John,
>
> Very interesting link. I always like to heard arguments against
> things which appear well accepted.
>
> However, considerable historical evidence suggests that an Oaad like
> Ice Age was real. Otherwise we need an alternative explanation for the following.
>
> 1) It is clear that city now found under water where build at the Ice
> Age Max.
> 2) It appears the Ice-Glacers melted rapidly
> a) killing vast amounts of wild-life - Monmoths.
> b) forming the English Channel, etc.
> c) much higher sea levels in 1400 BC to 1200 BC.
> 3) Warm water after the flood seems confirmed by colonies in the far
> north and abundant wild life along northern coasts. (possibly tropical life).
> 4) Book of jubilees suggests the Mts of Fire along the east african coast.
> It is not suprising to find so many diamonds in Africa due to this activity.
>
> However, at least in the Middle East, the sky was clear enough to see
> and record the position of the planets and stars from 2233 BC on.
> 2295 or 2285 for some other observations. So the volcanic activity
> was not sufficient to cover the earth for too long after the flood -
> nor would it be required to produce a Ice Age.
>
> At first skimming, I can't agree with the arguments presented against
> something that explains so much. But found it interesting
> nonetheless.
>
> Darrell
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:39:33 +0000
>> Subject: Re: "Breaking the Ice Age. " (Some Creationists who reject
>> the Ice Age as "Theory"
>>
>>
>> Darrell I couldnt click this link ; Please try my ammendment from 1
>> corrected to l:- Thus http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/dload/ice-age.pdf
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 5:27 PM, john hext-fremlin
>> > Hi Darrell I have another interesting link by one creationist who
>> > calls the Ice Age:- The "Ice Age Theory". I sugest this although an
>> > interesting idea:- Utter Nonsense. In Conclusion is not the north
>> > and South Poles still in the Ice Age? Link is
>> > http://viny12.sentex.ca/~dload/ice-age.pdf John
DRUIS DATES
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:39:42 +0000
>>> Subject: Druis (Compendium of World History Volum One) Importent SOS
>>>
>>> Hi Darrell I have found Druis. He reigned from 1936 BC to 1922 BC
>>> according to HLH. However I found Saronides ancestor of the
>>> "sacrificing Priests who ruled from 1997 BC. Is he Sarronides also a
>>> decendent of Samothes. Samothes seemsto be from HLH's time line that
>>> he ruled from 2094 to 2048. (This can't be right can it? ) I have
>>> him from 2148 BC to 2088 BC untill Albion came here. This is
>>> recomended by you from Holinshead's chronicle (although Holinshed a
>>> chronologist not ancient chronickler) I find Holinshed the better
>>> fit from what I've read of Milton's History of Britain with the 44 yr reign of Albion.
>>> HLH seems to have got things "Back to Front" in some respects. I
>>> find my proposed fit of 2094 BC for Nimrod's introduction of
>>> agriculture or Neolithic cultures also a good fit for the time HLH
>>> estimates Samothes. Note HLH also mentions "Ninus or Ninius" . Is this Nimrod?
>>> This thus seems an exelent fit for the date of 2094 BC as a
>> reasonable estimate given you have said Nimrod world wide introduced
>>> aggricultural or at best reintroduced it between 2100 and 2090 BC so
>>> thought I'd use 2094 as an update estimate. John
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Darrell White wrote
>> Hi John,
Glad you found the reference to Druis in HLH. One of HLH's biggest
>> problems was attempting to identify fameous ancients as the founders of all nations.
>> This
>> sometimes causes misidentifications and thus erroneous chronology.
>> But overall he did very well - at least he points to lots of good
>> references.
>> I really do not remember what Holinshed said about Samothes, will
>> have to look it up again. However, Noah's travels seems to be a
>> second witness suggesting an earlier date for Samothes. Thus your
>> current fit seem reasonable, although not absolutely confirmed by a
>> second witness. I will try to see if I can detect what HLH did
>> wroung, since I assume he must be in error here.
>>
>> Darrell
>>
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 4:00 PM, john hext-fremlin wrote:
> Hi Darrell yes I think you're right however where HLH made his biggest
> mistake (I think was a Printing error) by placing the flood 2369/2368
> BC which is 20 yrs off which should 2348 BC. Saaronides tribes are
> dated 1997 BC which I have for the Druids and Celts at your recomended
> date of 1996 to 1821 BC fitting the time of Abraham as in our
> Stonehenge discussion. As for Nimrod's reintroduction of the neolithic
> industry I have 2094 as an estimate (like you say Darrell between 2100
> and 2090 BC. That would fit well with compendium of world history thus
> holinshed and compendium in some considerable aggreement. The ownly
> "witness " I have here is the guy who wrote "Paradise Lost" and
> mentions Albion's 44 year rule of Britain. John